James W. Grable Jr. ’96

Grable

Mon, Jul 17, 2023 7:35AM • 00:05:00SUMMARY KEYWORDS

law school, great, lawyers, work, experience, law, clients, case, clerkship, trial, firm, practice, mentors, dad, opportunities, profession, felt, drawn, connors, closer

SPEAKERS

Jim Grable, Amy Herstek

Amy Herstek 00:10:00Hi, Jim, thank you for joining us today. How are you?

Jim Grable 00:15:00Doing? Great, great.

Amy Herstek 00:20:00Good, good. Good to see you. I have, I have a series of questions to ask you today about, really about your background, about your experience at the law school, your professional life and how being an attorney has impacted your family. And so let's just get started. Okay. Um, so if you could just start out and talk a little bit about your family background, including like, the number of siblings you have, what were your parents lawyers or not? Or what their application or what their professions are? Or were and whether you receive financial support from your family when you went to law school?

Jim Grable 00:25:00Yes. So my family background, I have one brother, who's also a lawyer, and my brother and I are two years apart. I'm the oldest of our family and my brother's two years younger. My brother practices law out in the west coast at a great firm called Quinton Manuel. He's also a litigation attorney. And my parents, my dad's a lawyer, and still his practicing lawyer, he's partially retired. But he continues to engage in the practice of immigration law. And his his example was certainly an inspiration to my brother and me, as was my mom, my mother was a nurse, she is retired from nursing. She worked three to 11 work nights, often to put my brother and help put my brother and me through school. So we did, we got a ton of help from our parents, and they certainly inspired us to, to get the best education we could, and to my dad's example, inspired us to become lawyers.

Amy Herstek 00:30:00So it was a pretty positive role model growing up.

Jim Grable 00:35:00Absolutely. Oh, yeah, my parents were great role models for my, I can remember, as a youngster, my dad would go to the EU, my dad is a UB law graduate, and he would go to the Law Library. On the weekends. This, of course, before you could like have all of your work on your laptop, or a computer. And so he would go and sit in the law library on the weekends with big stacks of books in front of them. And he would give my brother and me money to pop, you know, go to the vending machine every so often and buy some junk food. But basically, we would run around the Law Library and had a great time we, he would sometimes remind us to be quiet because we would be causing a bit of a ruckus from time to time. But then years later, when I was at the law school, it was it felt like a comfortable place. Because going there with my dad, when we were youngsters, really kind of made it a place that had some familiarity to us.

Amy Herstek 00:40:00So So when did you decide to become a lawyer and to actually go to law school? Was it one of those afternoons in the law library when you were little or later on?

Jim Grable 00:45:00You know, I'm sure I'm sure my dad's influence was always in the back of our minds, my brothers in mind about, you know whether law might be a vocation for us. But when I was in my undergraduate experience at the University of Buffalo, I really developed a love for history. And I thought about becoming a history professor. And I had some really great undergraduate professors at UB, who kind of talked me through that decision making, and ultimately, in conversations with them, and in conversations with my dad as well. It became apparent to me that law was something that I felt more strongly about and that I felt a stronger calling towards. And I remember one, one time in particular, my dad took me downtown. He this is when he worked in the federal courthouse, back when it was where the current Buffalo Police headquarters are located. And he took me to meet some a colleague of his by the name of Bob Murphy, who was this legendary trial lawyer here in Buffalo and, and we spent the afternoon together the three of us and that certainly played a role in kind of solidifying the choice for me, like, I think I probably would have gone to law school anyway. But that afternoon feels like it was a pretty formative afternoon in the sense that the three of us were in when I heard Bob talking about his adventures as a trial lawyer and as a criminal defense lawyer. That just sounded like the most exciting thing in the world for me.

Amy Herstek 00:50:00That's excellent. So was your did your family react positively when you then decided you were gonna go to law school? Yeah,

Jim Grable 00:55:00yeah, my dad I think was I don't know I've never I should ask him if he was worried about my earning prospects. If I were to become a history professor. You know, parents, I think, probably worry about those things a little bit, but my dad Both my parents were great. They were like really encouraging and, you know, wanted us to do, what would what we felt a calling towards. And that would bring us satisfaction, and hopefully allow us to have the sort of financial independence that we could have, you know, that we could have families and provide for our families.

Amy Herstek 01:00:00Great. So did you look primarily at UB or what other schools did you look at? Not necessarily the schools, but you know, what were your reasons for choosing UB?

Jim Grable 01:05:00Yeah, so yeah, well, I love Buffalo. And it's, it's my home, and I feel a strong connection to it. When I went to UB for my undergraduate experience, I suppose when I was thinking about my undergraduate experience, that would have been the time to go away to school, maybe. And, you know, I applied to a bunch of law schools, but you be, it felt like a place where I could feel at home. And I remember going with my dad, when they when I got my admission letter to UB, he and I went to a you know, some function. And I remember thinking, Jesus is like, this does feel like the right place for me. And, and that was affirmed once school started, like, I immediately met this great group of people who were like, you know, any, I suppose everybody, when your first week or two of law school, you have some doubts, or some, some doubt can creep in about geez, am I am I doing the right thing? Am I at the right place? Like, right away, I met this great group of people, and we hit it off. And, and that was that was a really important aspect of me feeling right at home. Right when I got to UB.

Amy Herstek 01:10:00That's excellent. So then starting out, do you remember like, how many students were in your class? And did you already know, a bunch of students so you,

Jim Grable 01:15:00I didn't think maybe it's coming from undergraduate, still law school that I would have known more people, I knew a few. But we were divided up into three sections, I don't know if they if they still divide people up into sections. And so I want to say that our section, I'm not even going to try to put a guess as to the number. But we were a really cohesive group, right from the start. We, in our classes pretty early on, we bonded really well. And, and I met a group of people who I'd never met before in my life, but who to this day are like lifelong friends are great. You know, my undergrad, essentially my undergraduate experience. UB is such a big place. For undergraduate that I don't really I met some great people and made some friends. But the law school felt like a much smaller, closer environment in terms of bonding together with people and these these friends who I met pretty quickly on, you know, stayed my friends, all three years of law school, and it's still my friends to this day.

Amy Herstek 01:20:00Oh, that's, that's wonderful. And so what was your fondest memory of law school?

Jim Grable 01:25:00Oh, my goodness, I have a lot of great memories of law school. Most of my best men fondest memories come from being in the library or doing things with this group of people who I bonded with. You know, we as I said, we got to be really close. And those friendships developed over the course of our classwork. And certainly, you know, sharing outlines and helping each other get ready for exams together, brought us closer, and then we did things outside of school that that made us really close. And made us great friends, in terms of my class experiences, that we had a great professor named Marcus doober, who taught us criminal procedure and, and criminal law, he certainly played a big role and in my decisions later in life to want to do those things. He was a really brilliant guy who inspired us in in a lot of ways. And then, you know, I had some great experiences, not in classwork like doing law review was really fun. You know, I got close to a whole additional group of people through the lot Law Review experience. And then honestly, maybe the fondest aspect of my law school experience was doing Trial Team stuff. In my third year, I was able to do the trial team with Bob Murphy, Diane Lavallee and Tim fryzek, where our coaches and teammate Craig Brown and Jen Ron fola. And and there was we had an extended team as well really talented people. And that solidified for that that was a really fun experience because that's the first time in my life where I felt like, you know, boy, I think I could really be drawn to doing wanting to do trial work as a vocation and then doing it with with brownie and genuine fola and a little bit earlier within that with my friend Lyle, who was a great Your trial or not in Chautauqua County. Doing it with them. And under the tutelage of Murph and Diane Lavallee and Tim fron Zac made me say, Okay, this is this is really something that I love and have a passion for.

Amy Herstek 01:30:00That's fantastic to discover that actually in law school. So that is great. So do you remember who was the Dean when you were in school? And did you ever have any interactions with the dean? Positive or negative?

Jim Grable 01:35:00This is gonna sound terrible. I remember Dean Carroll. Who I say it's gonna sound I can't remember. I remember the president of the school was President Greiner. It was Dean Olson. I'm sorry. Give me okay. Yeah. Great. And, and but I was closer in terms of relationship with a dean, I ended up drawing closer to Dean Carroll. While I was cool. He was kind of whether formal or informal, he was an advisor to Law Review. And, and so I got to know him a little bit. And he, he became a friend who's still a friend to this day, somebody who I really look up to and had a positive influence on my experience at UB and life beyond UB, after I graduated from UB, he and I stayed close to some extent. And, and that's, you know, so that that's a great relationship. Yeah,

Amy Herstek 01:40:00yeah. He has. He's well loved by everyone at the law school. I think that's. Yeah, exactly. So you mentioned Marcus doober. And I actually had him for Krim Pro, and he was fantastic. But are there any other favorites? In terms of professors and what made them stand out?

Jim Grable 01:45:00Um, you know, some of them are like the stock, who I think you probably hear a lot of people say in these interviews, Professor Joyce was, you know, great guy. I wasn't, I wasn't very good in terms of his class. I didn't have any aptitude for it. But he was a great teacher who inspired his students, honestly. Our first year we had Schlegel. So that's, you know, that's a memorable experience. For a lot of reasons, including that he sort of breaks you have whatever ideas you had about how you were supposed to think in law school, and immediately starts to try to get you thinking in a different way and critically thinking in his own creative way. And there, I was blessed to have there were great faculty all the way through. I mean, by the time I got to my third year, that intense Trial Advocacy Program, you know, doing that with, first with Murph and trial technique, and then, and then doing it with Tim Braun, Jack and Diane Lavallee, and Murph on the trial team, that was like, really, really made an impression on me, I was, and I don't even remember how to see if we got academic credit for doing the Trial Team stuff. But it was like the best possible training for the work that I like to do now.

Amy Herstek 01:50:00So So that leads me to my next question is, is that do you believe there's a relationship between the academic success in law school and your success in the legal profession?

Jim Grable 01:55:00Yeah, it's funny, I do believe that there's a connection between the training that the law school gives and how you're able to perform when you get out into the into the quote, unquote, real world. The Law School definitely taught me how to critically think and you know, your undergraduate experiences, they can teach you how to write and teach you how to engage in critical thinking as well. But the law school experience at UB was unique in that and different than the undergraduate experience in that it really kind of honed your critical thinking skills, no matter what class you were in, you were forced to engage in deep analysis, and, and the kind of thinking that lawyers do day in, day out. So I'm really profoundly grateful for the training that the law school gave me. And, and that it did it in a setting where, you know, I was able to meet these people who, who were heroes that I looked up to, like, I was I was taking classes with heroes that I looked up to and I wanted to emulate. And then once I got into practice, my colleagues from law school, today are the people who I look up to and want to emulate. You know, I was classmates with Judge Sue Egan and judge Craig Brown out in Orange County, Sean Carey life, you know, all these people who are lawyers that I look up to, and want to emulate, and the law school gave me exposure, not only the critical thinking and the training that you need to be a lawyer, but it also gave me access to an exposure to a world of great mentors and people that I could look up to.

Amy Herstek 02:00:00So Jim, it sounds like you had a very enriching experience in law school, both with mentors and in forming relationships with the people that you Matt and I went to school with what was the effect of the law school on your relationships, like with your family and your perception of yourself?

Jim Grable 02:05:00Well, my, my, my time at the law school and my experiences at the law school certainly, it drew my father and me closer in being a UB grad and, and us having that in common with each other, and me being inspired by his example and kind of following his footsteps. I think that made us closer we it's something that we it's a bond that we shared with each other. And then, you know, is when I was in law school is when I got engaged to my wife, Laura, who you know, Amy, and and you know, that, that she was in school at the same time in PA school. So we were both sort of on these parallel tracks where she was studying her what would become her vocation, and I was studying law and, and essentially, she was thinking about going to law school at one point. And then she, she worked in a law office for summers, as a legal assistant said, Nah, this isn't me. And, but, but these, the law school certainly helped all of my relationships in the sense that I think once you know what path you want to go down, and once you're, once you're drawn to a vocation, it can give you something of a sense of clarity, that can help you have sort of help you start to map out the rest of your life and give you some clarity about where you want to be and what you want to do with your life.

Amy Herstek 02:10:00That's great. So you would say that law school did prepare you for the future challenges that you faced once you graduated?

Jim Grable 02:15:00Oh, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So I went, when I graduated, I went into a clerkship with Judge appeals scrutiny at the at the district court here in Buffalo. And I felt completely prepared the writing, you know, I, when you first got out of law school, your writing can be a little raw in the sense that you're not yet an advocate, and you're not somebody who is fully formed. And so that experience, the law school gave me all the foundation I needed to go to work for Judge Cretney in the court system and kind of assist the judges as confidential law clerk in a way that I hope was valuable to him. And to the court certainly was valuable experience to me. And then I went from that experience into working with the firm with now Connors LLP at the time was Connors and lardo. And there's never a moment when I in the clerkship, were here when I got to Congress in Florida, that I felt like I was unprepared, I always, I felt like the foundation that I had from law school gave me the tools, I needed to be able to succeed in both of those environments. And they get the work done in a way that was hopefully, of use to the judge and to our clients here.

Amy Herstek 02:20:00Great. And so based on your own experience, have you engaged in much mentoring of students or, you know, the one else that you see, or I'm sorry, your law clerks that you see coming through your firm?

Jim Grable 02:25:00You know, I was doing a better job of that when I was younger. And by that, I mean, when I was first, before Laura, and I had all four kids, I was helping coach some of the trial teams, and giving back in that way. And that was like a dream come true. Because for a little while, I was coaching alongside Murph and Tim frond, Zach and Diane Lavallee. And some of these people who would coach me, and were so helpful to me, and, and I got some mentor up and coming trial attorneys in that setting. And that was really rewarding and fulfilling experience. And then I taught for a little bit at the law school, in the trial technique program. But when my kids were getting older, I had to make this choice about whether I was going to do that in the evenings or make it to as many of my kids events in the evenings as I was able to make it to so I had to kind of step away. We still have a summer program here at Connors LLP, the thankfully gives me opportunities to be close to law students and to work with them and be inspired by them. I mean, this generation of lawyers that the law school was producing now is incredibly impressive. I mean, they're like, they come out so polished and they're they're just they hit the ground running. So I do get those mentorship opportunities through my firm now and it's and I'm grateful for that. There There will come a point in my life where my kids are older. And and Laura and I are empty nesters. Is that I'm hoping to give more back in terms of mentorship to law students, then get a little closer maybe to what I was doing. Before all the kids came to Laura and me. And we had the blessing of chasing four kids around to their activities. And that's winding down for me. And I'm missing it already. And so I think I'll probably fill that. I'll probably try to fill that void by trying to mentor law students. As as I become an empty nester.

Amy Herstek 02:30:00Yeah. All in good time, you can kind of come full circle again. So can you talk a little bit about what did you do during your summers in between while you were in law school? And did you Was it easy to find a law related job for the summer?

Jim Grable 02:35:00Oh, it was, it was much easier my second summer than my first which is probably true for a lot of people. So my, when I finished my, when I was in my first year, I got a job as an immigration inspector at the Peace Bridge. And so I was I was working as an immigration inspector during law school, at least during the first and second year. And then that summer, I was able to work full time at the Peace Bridge. And they actually sent me down to Georgia for training, which was fun and interesting, and gave me some law related training and some other great experiences. So that was law related. It wasn't like traditional law, I suppose. But it was it was certainly helpful and informative. And then I did the on campus interviews for my second summer, and was an opposition with Hodgson Ross, which was a wonderful summer, that was a great training as well. And I, there's so many great lawyers, that firm who I got to work with, and work my way through some of their practice areas. And then when I was you know, when I was in my clerk, so then I was, I was blessed to get the clerkship, I guess that would have happened when I was in the start of my third year, Judge greerton interviewed me, and and offered me the position, I remember going to Hudson, Ross and Ross and saying, geez, you know, I don't know, I love how Gerasa Is this a bad thing, if I take this quick, and he was wonderful, he was like, it's not a bad thing to do a clerkship, it'd be great experience for you, you know, you should definitely do it. And you know, and, and it'll just open up and expand your opportunities that are available to you. And it was great advice. And whew, like a lot of other people in my wife was a really generous kind mentor, and a nice guy, you know, and, and so that that experience, and how generous led me to I think I'm sure that helped get the clerkship and then and then while I was in the clerkship, I got to see some of the lawyers from this firm practice and try and just threatening, and then that it was like, well, these are the people I want to practice with, for sure.

Amy Herstek 02:40:00Fantastic. So, so far, what has been your greatest professional achievement? Wow. Question? Well, you know what, we go back to it too, I

Jim Grable 02:45:00would say? Well, I would say finding, finding a law firm the practice with where my where I can, where I can serve a diverse range of clients. And by that, I mean, a lot of law firms might say, you know, that doing assigned criminal work, for example, is not as lucrative as doing another area of practice. So, you know, you should do less of that, and not, you know, not have that be a passion of yours, you should, you know, you should really devote yourself to pursuits that are most economically rewarding for the firm. And certainly, that's an important component of my wanting to meet my responsibilities to my partners and my family. But But I am grateful that law has given me an opportunity to try to help people who sometimes don't have a voice. You know, and we don't always succeed in that. But that, to me is like, the greatest thing you can do with a law degree is be a voice for somebody who otherwise might not have a voice. And so I haven't, you know, those opportunities when they presented themselves I think it's been the most professionally rewarding for me.

Amy Herstek 02:50:00So do you in your practice, do you have a lot of assigned counsel cases like that

Jim Grable 02:55:00I do some federal assigned work and retained criminal cases as well. And I've done some, you know, in, in years past, I've done some pro bono work with the federal court system. But my practice also consists of state court practice with, you know, with non assigned paying clients, civil and criminal, so, so there's a pretty good balance there. And I really enjoy that balance. I enjoy having my criminal defense work my civil and again, there's not, maybe not a lot of firms that would offer somebody and allow someone the opportunity to do such a broad range of practice, as I've been blessed to be able to do at my firm and, and it's worked out really well. I love, I love all of the aspects of the work that I do commercial litigation, criminal defense, plaintiff's personal injury work, you know, it's a pretty vary practice. Some might say, you'd be better off specializing in one thing or another, but I like I like the I like the exercise of practicing in numerous different areas, and trying to help clients across a broad spectrum.

Amy Herstek 03:00:00That's great. So what were some of the cases or some of the clients that you can talk about that you enjoyed the most? If you could maybe describe your professional experience? Did you come to Connors right after the clerkship? And that's where you've been or did you go? Did you go back to Hudson? And then condors, or how did that evolve?

Jim Grable 03:05:00Yes, so I when I was finishing up my clerkship, I applied to a number of different firms. But I was drawn to Congress in Florida. Because I'd seen Vince Doyle back then the sort of the prosecution du jour in federal court, were telemarketing cases. And Vince Doyle had represented a client and telemarketing place case, my my current client, my current partner events, and seeing the quality of his advocacy in that case, made me say, Wow, this is a firm that I really kind of need to get to know better and look into. And then I saw Terry Connors in a trial and became familiar with the work of several of the lawyers who are now my partners, including Michael Roche, and Lawler Quinlan and, and the quality of their advocacy. And their commitment to their clients made me say, this is like this is I can't imagine working with a better, more talented, hard working group of lawyers than these people. And they're just wonderful human beings to so so. So that drew me to Connors, what was then kind of learn. And then when I got here, I got to work with Judge Vardo, who kind of made me it kind of he made me a much better writer, and Terry, and, and Larry and their mentorship and Vince Doyle and all my partners. And seeing the example of Michael Roche and Lawler, Quinlan and these hard working people who were so inspiring was certainly something that made me really glad about the choice that I made, in terms of clients who have had who have left a great impression on me. It's funny, sometimes when you're representing when you're in litigation, you don't sometimes appreciate the impact that a client is having on you, I think the clients probably, oftentimes it's the most important thing happening in their life, maybe the most important thing, so that you play an outsized role in their life. But every now and then you have a client, and you don't realize until the engagement is done, that the client can have a really profound impact on you, like I had a case, a federal criminal case with a client by the name of David Davis, in a case, and there's nothing especially noteworthy about the case. But it's just David is a success story. You know, when the case was done, he got a sentence that was, you know, a fair sentence, he completed a sentence. And he had turned his life around, and David had kind of started to turn his life around while the case was, even before the case was filed against him, and seeing him succeed after the case was done. And now, you know, having stayed in touch with him over the years, it's oftentimes we lose, we don't see the results of our work, years down the line, but that's a case that I remember with some fondness because it's a success story that David is doing really well. And, you know, and we developed a friendship, that's a genuine, sincere friendship, and they're more clients than I would have imagined who I'm friends with now, who I thought, you know, you think that it's just this business relationship. And then when you're in the work, it's intense, but but you're in, you're in something together and when it's done, you're able to look back on and say, Okay, we went through a tough thing together and it worked out well or is well as it could under the circumstances, and and you have these great relationships that. And so those are the clients that I remember the most finally, in the cases, candidly that I remember the most finally, it's not so much the results. Because especially doing criminal defense work in federal criminal defense work, a lot of times the results are disappointing you, you lose a lot of cases. But the relationships that you form with the clients can can make for something much more meaningful than than just gee, how did the case turned out?

Amy Herstek 03:10:00So how have the professional opportunities for lawyers changed, if at all, in your area of practice?

Jim Grable 03:15:00Yeah. That is, from my perspective, is the professional opportunities for lawyers have expanded. And by that, I mean, even as recently as when I was in law school, so the late 90s, we needed to do a better job in terms of diversity in the profession. And, and inclusivity, and equity. And I think the law school was certainly a trailblazer in leading the charge for making sure that opportunities to become lawyers, was something that was available to a much broader audience than had been prior to when I was in law school. And I think the law school continues to be a leader in that regard. And, you know, I think that's, there are just a lot more opportunities for, for diverse candidates to enter the legal profession, through the law school, and through the training that the law school gives, and our profession and our society are a lot better off for it. You know, it's, the quality of the graduates that I see coming out of the law school now are stronger than ever before. These are, you know, I remember when I was in law school, we used to look up to the class of 56, they were 40 years before us. And it was lawyers who we still were coming in contact with, in downtown Buffalo judgments and Doyle, and Bob Murphy, judgments. It was a really illustrious class. And, and I remember sitting with some of my classmates, including my trial teammates, and saying, like, you know, these, these are like the giants in the profession we can try to imagine, imagine living up to that example. And, and now, I think, as great as those classes were, you have, you're getting better lawyers out of the law school, because the opportunities are much more available to a much broader audience. And that's, that's, that's, that's an important thing. For Western New York. It's an important thing for American society in general. And it's, it's a huge, huge upgrade from even the late 90s.

Amy Herstek 03:20:00That's fantastic. We have come a long way. In a short time, it seems like so if you had to go, if you had the opportunity to make the choice again, would you still choose a legal career?

Jim Grable 03:25:00Absolutely, yeah. And I say I would absolutely choose a legal career again, without hesitation because it's opened so many doors. And you know, I'm I was raised Catholic, my parents raised Catholic, and we believed in the golden rule, you know, to try or at least, we tried to live up to the golden rule of trying to do unto others as we would hope that others would do to do For unto us. And law gives you an opportunity to be in service to others, often at a time where they're at, like their time of greatest need. And, and, and it's financially rewarding as well. And it's, you know, it's so many, it opens so many doors in so many different ways. And it gives you a voice and the opportunity to be a voice for people who otherwise don't have one. And it's hard work at times, of course, but any any job is hard work. There are many professions, maybe many professions that give you the opportunities that law does to help somebody through what might be the toughest time in their life, you know, and, and if you're sitting side by side with someone who's going through that, and you're able to make their lot in life, the load that they're carrying a little bit lighter during that time that they're carrying it. That's, that's pretty rewarding. And, and, and to do it with colleagues. You know, the the great thing about the buffalo legal community is when you're in law school you're meeting your heroes, the people who are your mentors are your heroes. And then you come out of law school and you work alongside your people who are your heroes you look up to them and all sudden you're in the well of a courtroom with them. You know, the herb greenman's the rod persona says the, the the Joel Daniels, the Terry Connors, these giants of the profession who you look at, and you say, jeez, these I get to stand in the well of a courtroom. Alongside these people. And my contemporaries, Tim Hoover and Sheryl Meyers booth. And, like, these are people who Brian Melber, these are lawyers who I look at, and I very COVID, I say, these are people who I, I get to stand alongside them and advocate for somebody, they're the most talented people I've ever laid eyes upon. And they're great at what they do, and they have a passion for it. And they care about making a difference. And I get to do that, too. That's, that's about as good as it gets.

Amy Herstek 03:30:00And so when you're talking about the opportunities that you've had, and, and the impact that the service that you have been able to provide to, you know, clients in, in need, how does that impact your practice and your personal and family life as a whole.

Jim Grable 03:35:00Um, you know, litigation practice, can can, when you're on trial, it can make it, it can be a strain, in some ways, you know, it's stressful work. And you're working long hours, and that comes with a commitment to the client, and to the issues. But I've been really blessed to have a family that's like, understands that this is like a calling that I that I find it hard to resist. And so they've been very tolerant of me pursuing this dream and doing this work. And I had the blessing of partners here at this law firm, who are tremendous inspiration, and the, you know, we all pitch in and help each other. So when we're on trial here at the firm, it's not uncommon, when you're at the most stressful moment of the trial, to come back to the office ready to fall over. And, you know, to have a bunch of the most brilliant colleagues in the world, drop everything they're doing and come into a room and help you sort through an issue. And all of a sudden, you're benefiting the stresses, the stress cloud is lifted, because you're benefiting from the insights of these brilliant people who have dropped everything to help you. And so then when you get home, you're not carrying as much stress home with you, you know, having great partners and colleagues, and people you work with who inspired you makes it easier to leave the work at the office, and to and to come home and be tried to be fully present at home and be there for the people you love the most. And then the next morning you wake up and you get back to the task at hand. Because you know that people have your back and so it loved it and litigation practice and trial law can be stressful to be certain. But but it's it's it's hopefully made the burden on my family a little bit easier that I've done it at a firm in at a place where people care enough about me that they've pitched in and helped. And then I've been able to come home and and set the stress aside and be there for them. And, and I have these you know, my kids and my wife inspire me that work ethic is outstanding, and their and their creativity and their you know, everything about them is an inspiration that I try to take with me into my work on behalf of my clients.

Amy Herstek 03:40:00So will you encourage your kids to go to law school, when it comes time for them to maybe think about graduate schools?

Jim Grable 03:45:00Yeah, so I'm kind of at that age with my oldest, my four children and my two oldest, or my oldest is graduated from college already. And he's all of them are choosing their own path. And it's wonderful. Because my parents never told me, You should go down this path or that path. They let me make the choice. Even though my dad was a lawyer. My parents never said to me cheese, we think you should do this or we think you should do that. They let my brother and me make the choice and be drawn to what we would be drawn to. And Lauren, I've tried to do that with our children too. And it's worked out great. They've they've found their own callings. Now, my oldest is a financial advisor in Cleveland. And that's his calling and he's like he's taken off and soaring with that and and it's been inspiring to me to see him you know to him to the work that he's doing. It's I wish he was doing it here in Buffalo, but Cleveland's not far in terms of going to visit him. And then my daughter, Katie, who's the second of my four is in college, and she may or may not be drawn to law. So it's interesting. I'm trying not to be that parent who gets so excited about it that says, Oh, my gosh, you have to do this. But I'll confess that the prospect of her becoming a lawyer is something that's exciting to me, because I love the profession. And I think she would, I think she'd be great at it. And my two younger ones, I don't know what they're going to be drawn to whatever it is, I'll try to be as supportive to them as my parents have been to me. And Laura and I, as I said, we try, we try not to try not to nudge them in one direction or the other, because they've got to find their own path. But But to answer your question, I'd be thrilled if any of them were drawn to law. And I'm thrilled, to the extent that they're drawn to whatever there is their own passion. I'm equally thrilled about that.

Amy Herstek 03:50:00So what advice do you have for lawyers just starting out in their practices,

Jim Grable 03:55:00find great mentors, and people who you who you look up to who, who are more than likely going to be willing to give you the time and attention that great mentors gave me. You know, that all the way through, starting with my dad all the way up through Bob Murphy, and Tim, friend, Zach and Diane Lavallee. And then judge front, you know, and then judge Scotney gave me that great experience with him all on the way I was blessed to have these mentors who I could turn to and say, Geez, you know, how do I do this, or I want to do this, and they were so generous with their time, and their willingness to mentor me. And then when I got to this firm, you know, it continued, and it's funny when you get to, so I get here to Congress in Florida at the time. And the two name partners, Terry counters, and Larry Florida are like, you know, they take an active interest in me succeeding as a lawyer that was about as good as it can, as I could have imagined. And then to have the partners when I was an associate encouraged me and say, Hey, you want to do that? Do it, it's your passion, go for it, be good at it serve the clients, well, you know, you know, meet your responsibilities to the firm and to your clients and to your family. But but the sky's the limit, go and do what is your passion. And then and then you know, you get to a certain age, and the people who inspire you are sometimes the people who, like my younger partner like Nick Romano, and Molly McCory, and Joe Mora, partners who are younger than me, but their work ethic is a form of mentorship, that inspires me. And, and then you know, then, if you're lucky enough to, you know, to work alongside colleagues in the profession, who inspire you. So my advice to a lawyer coming out would be, find people who inspire you who can mentor you, and, and then spend as much time being as close to those people as you can, like, you know, Tim Hoover, Spencer Durland, to great world class criminal defense lawyers, who inspire me and where I tried to emulate. There's the great thing about my work is I'm in these cases now, with these lawyers from Rochester, Bill Eason and Don Thompson, who are like world class, criminal defense attorneys. And, you know, trying cases with them and being in a courtroom with them and working cases with them. It feels like we're in a profession where the opportunities for growth are limitless, There literally is no limit on how much growth you can experience in this profession. And you can every day continue to grow and develop. And that, to me is the beauty of that profession. So I'd say to a lawyer coming out, the sky's the limit. You know, connect yourself, connect yourself to these people who are you'll find so many generous people along the way, who will give you the same kind of mentorship that I was blessed to receive.

Amy Herstek 04:00:00That's fantastic. And so one last question. Really just about UB law, if, if you could change anything about you'd be law school. What would that be?

Jim Grable 04:05:00I suppose if I had a magic wand, I would pick it up and put it downtown close to the courthouses. Just to give the students the opportunities that my dad had and some of the the lawyers when the law school used to be on West Eagle. I used to hear stories about those lawyers be able to walk across the street and see these great trials happening. And now with technology, you can you can sort of replicate that to some extent, with remote experiences. And now with the courtroom at the law school, sometimes great courtroom experiences come from law school. But if I could, I think it would enrich the experience of law students, if they were in closer physical proximity to where these great trials are happening. And because let's face it, like, there's always great trials going on in every generation, and there's great lawyers to see in action. And, and I would love when I was, this just popped into my head, but when I was in high school, I used to go downtown, or my dad's office was in the federal courthouse. When we had like, you know, down days, I would sometimes just drive my dad's my grandfather's Buick Skylark, that was at the courthouse and with a buddy of mine, who's now a lawyer. And we would watch trials, we just go in and like, go into judge curtains courtroom and see what's happening in the courtroom. And it was great. And it was like, it was intimidating and inspiring. And like it was felt like you're watching a drama play out right before your eyes. And so it's a long answer. But if I could change one thing about the law school, I guess that would be it. I would pick up law school and deposit it right next to the the old County Hall building on Franklin Street. So that the end, hopefully these the law students are taking advantage like so. The law school was located where it is, obviously, when I was there in the late 90s. And so, my friends from law school, and I would we would just go downtown and watch trials. And some I hope, even despite COVID I hope that's still happening for law students. They're still getting those opportunities to go and great lawyers and action, and that those lawyers are inspiring their own.

Amy Herstek 04:10:00Yeah, it seems to be the continuous debate about the location. So that's a good, that's a good build. And a good note to end on. Thank you so much.

Jim Grable 04:15:00Yeah, thank you, Amy. Thanks for Thanks for having this conversation with me and it's always so great to see you. Please give my love.

Amy Herstek 04:20:00Thank you tell your family I said hello.