Hon. Elizabeth A. Wolford

Wolford

Thu, Jul 13, 2023 3:44AM • 00:01:00SUMMARY KEYWORDS

law school, judge, attorney, rochester, litigator, law, work, litigation, program, question, mentors, learn, buffalo, career, legal, terms, chief judge, notre dame, diversity, pursue

SPEAKERS

Sarah Washington, Judge Elizabeth Wolford

Sarah Washington 00:02:00Good afternoon judge Wolford.

Judge Elizabeth Wolford 00:03:00I Sarah, how are you? Good.

Sarah Washington 00:04:00Thank you for joining us today. You were born and raised in Rochester. Correct.

Judge Elizabeth Wolford 00:05:00I was actually born in Buffalo. I was born in Buffalo when my father was going to UB law school. And I lived there on Grand Island for the first couple years of my life until my parents moved back to Rochester. That's where they both were from. 00:06:00And when you moved to Rochester, you attend the Rochester area high schools. 00:07:00Yes, I went to public schools, Fairport High School Fair for public schools K through 12. 00:08:00And where did you obtain your undergraduate bachelor's degree from? 00:09:00I went to Colgate University and obtained my bachelor's degree from Colgate. 00:10:00And after attending Colgate, what did you go on to pursue? Or do? 00:11:00I went immediately to law school after college and I went to Notre Dame for law school, they had just won the national championship the year before in football. So it was probably one of the reasons it was on my radar, in terms of law schools to apply to, 00:12:00and why were you interested in attending law school? 00:13:00Well, my father is an attorney. And my uncle was also an attorney. And no question, my father had a significant influence over me in terms of any decision to go into law school. When I was growing up, he, we always had a tradition in our family, we'd sit around the dinner table, and have dinner together. And he'd always tell stories about his cases. And it just sounded so fascinating. And it involved many different aspects of life, really. And it seemed like the natural thing to do plus I was a political science major in college. And there's not a lot you can do with a political science major, other than go on to some further graduate course. 00:14:00So is it fair to say, Judge, you were heavily influenced by your dad, and you want it to be like your dad? 00:15:00Well, I think it's fair to say that I was heavily influenced by both of my parents. And there's no question that they had an impact on my decision making, including my father and his love for the law and love for the legal profession that instilled in me a real interest to pursue there. 00:16:00And aside from your father, did you and your Uncle, did you have any other role models who influenced you to go into a career in the law? 00:17:00I'm not sure the answer your question. I can't really identify any other role models who directed me to pursue a legal career. My mother, who was a biology teacher in high school, clearly was influential in my brothers and I studying hard and be prepared for every class. I mean, I think she deserves a ton of credit in that regard. 00:18:00And Ted, why did you decide to attend Notre Dame? 00:19:00Well, as I mentioned, Notre Dame had won the championship. And we're there. We're there the national champions in football the year before I went there, and just seemed like a great school and I I'm Catholic, I was raised Catholic, but I had never gone to Catholic school before law school. And it was always as a school that I had a ton of respect for, and seemed like the right decision for me at the time. 00:20:00And I'm going to take you back to law school now. What was your least favorite class in law school? 00:21:00Property? Professor, he was terrible. 00:22:00And aside from the professor, was there any other reason why you didn't like property? 00:23:00I also hated federal tax. Actually, I probably could identify better the classes that I hated in law school versus the ones that I love federal tax, I could not stand either. It was just doing our final exam, we had to fill out a tax return, which was challenging. I mean, I use I have an accountant that does my tax returns now. I mean, it's just I think it may have been the only time Well, probably not I was gonna say the only time I filled out a tax return, but when I was younger, I'm sure I did my own 00:24:00taxes. And what were your favorite classes while you were there? 00:25:00Oh, I loved the criminal law classes, even though I never practiced in criminal law. But Professor Blakey, who was just a terrific professor, he was the father of Rico. The Racketeer Influenced Corrupt Organizations Act. He had worked on the House Judiciary Committee that investigated the Kennedy a sash assassination, or may have been the house special committee that was formed for that he was just a terrific professor. And he had many interesting stories and the constitutional law aspects that were involved in any of his criminal law classes. were challenging, but also interesting to me. 00:26:00And during law school, did you have a lot of time of experience in the courtroom through moot court trial technique or anything like that? 00:27:00Yes, in fact, the NIDA program is based or at least it was when I was in law school, it was based at Notre Dame, and they have a very robust Trial Advocacy Program. And I participated in many different aspects of that the appellate aspect the trial advocacy program, and that was challenging but also a great learning experience. 00:28:00Did you participate in Law Review? 00:29:00Yes, I was on law review. And I was the rich research and projects editor of the law review my third year in law school. 00:30:00And do you believe there's any relationship between your success during law school and success in the legal profession? 00:31:00Oh, it's definitely there's a correlation, no question about it. I think law school teaches you how to think like a lawyer and think logically how to approach different problems. And it prepares you for cases that you ultimately end up handling, as an attorney, and how to work with your client and your your team to figure out how to resolve various issues. 00:32:00What role did any mentors or faculty members from the law school play during your academic time at Notre Dame, 00:33:00I felt as though the professors at Notre Dame by and large, were very hands on very approachable, always willing to provide advice and input on legal careers. They oftentimes had had really tremendous careers before they became law professors. And that was also an inspiration in terms of learning about different avenues that one could pursue as an attorney. 00:34:00And what was the importance of mentors to you? Whether it be from the law school itself, or the local bar association, or even when you came back home to Rochester? What's the importance? What was the importance of mentors for you while you pursued your JD? 00:35:00Well, I think mentors can be extremely critical to anybody in any kind of profession, including the legal profession. And you need to have people as mentors who you are comfortable with, who can provide your honest feedback and good solid advice. So you're not afraid to ask questions of and concerned about how you might be perceived. exploring different avenues and mentors are incredibly valuable. And they come in all different shapes and sizes, so to speak, and you can find mentors in your, your legal environment, you can find mentors in your personal life that really can run the gambit. 00:36:00And did there ever come a time in law school when you thought about quitting law school? 00:37:00No, no, I never thought about quitting Law School. I'm not a quitter. 00:38:00Good. That's good to hear judge. Now turning to your career, you practice for over 20 years with your father. Tell me about that. 00:39:00I did so when my father had do, as I mentioned earlier, had gone to UB Law School. He was a an Assistant US Attorney and Rochester in charge of the Rochester office when he shortly after getting out of law school and that was a partner. At the time it was Nixon, Hargrave Devon's and Doyle. It's now Nixon Peabody. And when I was getting out of law school, he decided to set up his own litigation firm. It had been something that he'd been thinking about for a while and the timing just ended up being you right in terms of my coming back here to Rochester, and him deciding to set up his own litigation firm. And so initially it was Michael R Wolford and Associates, it had very different, various different evolutions over the years. And ultimately, I became a partner there, I started out as the junior associate. I think my salary, especially with a new law firm, I was making less than anybody in the firm, including the administrative assistants. But I worked my way up and did a lot of work very hard and learned a tremendous amount from my father in terms of not only how to be a tremendous litigator, but also how to be a good colleague in the legal community, because sometimes I think that can be, especially when you're involved in litigation. And it's by definition, adversarial. And I really learned from him I think, how to try to take the any nastiness or animosity out of practicing law. And it can be difficult to do that I think sometimes emotions can run hide, but it's critically important not only to maintaining, I think good relationships in the legal community, but also for your own personal well being. And I think a lot of people end up becoming frustrated with the practice of law or litigation in particular. And one of the ways to avoid that is to make sure that you're continuing to enjoy it. And one of the ways to enjoy it is not to make it unpleasant. And to, to make sure that you always remember that at the end of the day, you know, it's it's, it's a profession, and you're advocating strongly on behalf of clients. But it's something that at the end of the day, you want to be able to look your colleagues in the eye and be proud of the way that you've handled any particular case. 00:40:00Judge, were there any obstacles you faced as a female litigator? 00:41:00Sure, there were obstacles. I faced as a female litigator, I think, especially when I was a younger attorney, I recall, not infrequently, showing up for a deposition and being mistaken, even by the receptionist who was female at the firm, as the court reporter, as opposed to the attorney who was there to conduct the deposition. Your perception, I think, was probably the greatest absolute obstacle. And it just you have to learn to appreciate that everybody may have a different perspective on things and you have to learn to work then on the other hand, I would say being a female litigator, also provided tremendous advantages. And then ultimately, especially when I got to the stage of my career, where I was responsible for developing business, there were an awful lot of relationships that I had with other female attorneys who had gone to and decided to work in house companies. And I developed a lot of business because of those personal relationships. So they weren't, would have necessarily been developed if I hadn't been a female litigator. 00:42:00Now that you're on the bench, are there any aspects of private practice or litigation as an attorney that you miss? 00:43:00Oh, there's a lot of aspects of private practice and litigation that I miss. I mean, I have a wonderful job. I love my job. But I miss the experience of working with other attorneys is part of a team litigating a particular case, strategizing over how to be the most effective attorney that you can be your client. There's an adrenaline rush that's involved with litigation, that being a judge, you don't really necessarily have that same experience as a judge, you're not winning or losing cases any longer. You're just you're trying to do the best you can, but your objective is not to obtain a particular result. Your objective is to do the best you can to reach the right result whereas in litigation, it's there's a competitive ask back to it that you you replace. Being a judge and I miss. One of the more difficult parts of being a judge that I found when I first became a judge was it can be a very isolating position. And getting used to that took some time I, it's been over nine years at this point. So I'm definitely more used to that. But that definitely took some adjustment on my part, to learning that I see my chambers staff quite frequently. And when I go into court, I'll see attorneys in court, but it just is not the same experience as being a litigator in a law firm and being involved with other attorneys in the community. It's one of the reasons I've stayed actively involved. One of the reasons that I've stayed actively involved in bar associations, because that does still give you even as a judge an opportunity to still have those relationships with members of the legal community that you wouldn't otherwise have the opportunity to experience. 00:44:00And Judge when you appointed to the Western District of New York as a US district judge, and what was that appointment process like for you? 00:45:00So I, my I received my commission initially, it was on my birthday, December 17, of 2018. And I was sworn in on December 13 2013. So it'll be 10 years this December. And I was recommended for the position by Senator Schumer in March of 2013. And then ultimately nominated by President Obama in May of 2013. And so after I was nominated, and that doesn't occur until you have an FBI background check and go through interviews with the White House Counsel's Office. But after I was nominated, then I went and appeared before the Senate Judiciary Committee and July of 2013, and then ultimately had a vote on the full Senate floor in December of 2013. So oh, you know, it sounds like now is when I describe it, it sounds as though it was fairly quick, but it felt like a hot process at the time, 00:46:00I imagine. And then in July of 2021, what happened? 00:47:00So in July of 2021, I became Chief Judge of the district court here in the Western District of New York. And it's a seven year term. So I'll serve in this position, God willing, for another five years and some change. 00:48:00And you're a trailblazer judge, you're the first woman to be a US district judge in the Western District and the first chief judge and female, first female chief judge in the Western District. How does that make you feel? 00:49:00Well, I'm very humbled by it, very honored by it proud of that. But I sure want to make sure that I'm not the last to serve in this position. I'm not just the first and still the only woman who serves as a district judge in the Western District of New York, and I hope changes because I think diversity on the bench is tremendously important for a number of reasons, including instilling public confidence in the judiciary, and we have a wonderful bench, your colleagues, but as seats open up, I would like to see the district become more diverse. 00:50:00And if there's a law student or a current attorney who's thinking about what it would, how to aspire to the bench, what advice would you give them to someone thinking that it's a dream, and it's impossible for me to ever assign to the bench, what would you tell them? 00:51:00Well, I think most importantly, you have to whatever prefer whatever job you end up in, you have to enjoy it. Because in order to Excel, you have to spend a lot of hours on it. And there's nothing more miserable, I think probably than spending a lot of time on something that you're not enjoying. So my advice is and it really is probably more reflective of my career is don't pick your job based on where you think it's going to lead you. Pick your job based on what you think you're going to enjoy and what is going to be the most rewarding to you personally and professionally. And from there, I know you need the stars to be aligned, you need a lot of luck, but if you work hard and you always maintain your If your standards and live up to the standards that you set for yourself, then I think you really can have an opportunity to move on to other positions. But I think a lot of people make mistakes by selecting a particular job or going into a particular job based on where they think their job will be at them as opposed to actually enjoying and having satisfaction from that particular position. 00:52:00Judge you had the opportunity to interview another Trailblazer when she made a visit to Buffalo a couple years ago, the Honorable Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, what do you recall about that experience? What was that experience like for you? 00:53:00It was one of the best experiences, like quite frankly, it or having the opportunity to interview Justice Ginsburg was surreal, first of all, because I've There's nobody like her, and there may never be another person. Like her. She was so gracious, so welcoming, so receptive she, she had come to Buffalo. And really, I think primary purpose of her visit to Buffalo was to go to law school. But then she came to the Jackson courthouse in Buffalo, the next day, with app and I had the opportunity to conduct the question and answer session with her, which I think it probably went on for 4045 minutes, but it felt like just a matter of a couple minutes. And it was one of as I said, it was one of the best experiences of my life, I was so fortunate to be able to have that opportunity. 00:54:00And if you could do it all over again, would you still choose a career in the law? 00:55:00Oh, absolutely. There's no question I would choose a career in the law if I had an opportunity to do it over again. I mean, with anything, there's always there's always ups and downs. And there's probably been times during my career that I've enjoyed it more than other times, but I can't think of a better profession. And it provides you with an opportunity to be intellectually challenged, to be engaged in the community to really have the the, I guess, provided with the opportunities to make a difference. And I think lawyers make bottom line lawyers, lawyers make a difference in many different. And I think it's the most honorable profession there is out there. I'm biased, of course, but 00:56:00And as you've pursued your various legal pursuits, as a litigator, as a judge, and now as the chief judge, what choices have you had to make about your family about your friends? How have you managed to balance it? Ah, 00:57:00well, I don't think there's ever a perfect balance to anything, but you just do the best you can in terms of trying to make the right choices. I, I have the opportunity oftentimes to speak to some or law clerks, we have a diversity clerkship program here in Rochester, that my father actually was very instrument, starting when he was president of our association. And each summer, there's a program that he puts on where judges come and speak to those students. And I think that, by and large, all of them consistently will will portray the message of if something doesn't feel right, it probably isn't. Right. And I think younger attorneys especially you may be put in different positions where you feel as though you're torn in terms of what's the right thing to do. Go with your gut. I mean, if it if it doesn't feel like it's the right thing to do, then probably is not the right thing to do and the best, either not do it or talk to somebody else who is there who can give you some better advice in terms of what would be appropriate under those circumstances. 00:58:00What advice do you have for lawyers just beginning their practice? 00:59:00Well, the advice I would give to any new attorney starting out right now is work hard. I don't care how much talent you have, or how much skill you think you. You have to work at it. The truly great attorneys are the ones who are tireless, in their case preparation. 01:00:00And judged it's no secret there's a lack of diversity in our legal community. You both here in Buffalo. And in Rochester. What are your thoughts about the lack of diversity? And in your opinion, what can we do to help bridge the gap there? 01:01:00Well, it's an excellent question. I think that the diversity in any organization, including the legal community is critically important. There's been a diversity clerkship program here in Rochester run by originally started by the Monroe County Bar Association, but also the woman's Bar Association here. And now the black bar association of Rochester has taken over in an effort to attract persons of color to were students to the Rochester area, and with the hope that they will stay in the legal community and make a career event. But that's just one facet of it. I think it's something that you always have to be vigilant about, we have just started. And once I became three, after I became Chief Judge, our district is collaborating with the eighth Judicial District on a jury diversification project and an effort to take a real hard look at the racial diversity of prospective jurors and both our district as well as in the eighth Judicial District, and try to come up with strategies as to how to improve the the numbers, quite frankly, and we have been working hard at that mean, I think the Western western New York is a diverse environment in a lot of different ways. It's a diverse community, but there are not enough persons of diversity who work in the legal community. It's improved, I think, to some degree, but it isn't anywhere where I would like to see it. I think that it's, you know, if there was a magic answer to it, I think it wouldn't be proud of them. 01:02:00And Judge, what's one piece of advice when you see a young litigator appear before you in the courtroom? What do you what do you like to see from litigators when they come before you? 01:03:00Well, I think one of the tendencies of not just young litigators, but really any litigator oftentimes, you may be nervous when you're appearing in front of a judge. And you may have your little spiel that you want the judge and you may just be so focused on that, that you're not listening to the judges questions. I think it's very important. Listen to the judges questions. Remember, you're not arguing with the judge. I mean, your your judge is not your adversary, the judge is ultimately going to be the person who makes the decision with respect to your case. And so it's important to not interrupt the judge makes sure that you can understand the questions and then try to be as responsive to the judges questions as possible. Because as I said, at the end of the day, it's the judge who is going to be deciding whatever issue it is that you're arguing in front of her or him about. 01:04:00Judge you were inspired by your own father to attend law school, do you encourage your children or other family members to attend law school? 01:05:00Well, my niece right now is she just graduated from college. And so she is planning to go to law school in the fall. And I think it's terrific, and I've been highly encouraging of her to do that. 01:06:00Do you have any exposure to up law students currently judge? 01:07:00Well, I might. When I first started as a judge, I hired three law clerks and two of them were up last year, I including one who still works for me, she's gone and done other things which stepped back and working for me as a law clerk Caitlin Lofgren. And I know, it's a terrific law school, and I have the privilege of having a lot of UB alumni up law alumni appear in front of me on a regular basis, because there is such a large number of friends in both Buffalo and Rochester. 01:08:00And so how would you describe the caliber of the current student body or young attorneys, recent graduates of the UVA law school? 01:09:00I've remembered, remember, I've seen I think that the law school does a terrific job of not just educating attorneys to be but also providing real hands on critical tools helped them become good lawyers. There's a lot of clinics that the law school As in fact, the P SAP program, that we have the prostate assistance program that the court operates, we would not be operated without the assistance of UVA law school and students. And it's those types of programs. And I think, you know, it's one thing to just get the education or have the lectures in the class. And those are important, no question about it. But it's also important to teach attorneys to be what it means to actually be an attorney and how you go about doing that. And I think you'd be does a terrific job of them. 01:10:00So just sounds like you strongly encourage current students to take advantage of practicums and clinics to get that hands on experience, while also paying attention to their doctrinal classes, but the hands on experiences is what will prepare them to argue motion their first year out and not be nervous to be in front of a judge. 01:11:00I think so I mean, I've always been of the mindset that it's when you're a young attorney, and you're not supposed to know what you're doing, that's the time to be questioning a witness for the first time as a time to be appearing before a judge for the first time. Because if you make mistakes, it's almost expected that you're not going to know what you're doing. It's tough. If you've been out of law school for 10 years, and it's the first time you're examining a witness in front of a jury. That's a that's a high pressured situation to be in. So I, I strongly believe that trying to get as much hands on experience as possible, both when you're in law school, and as a young attorney, take on pro bono cases, represent somebody for free. It's nice when you have an employer that supports that. But that'll give you some real hands on experience that I think is invaluable. We used to when I was a young attorney, we would go over every other week and do it was called tenant in the morning program and Rochester City core. And we'd represent these poor tenants who were being evicted by their landlords. And they were served with I think it was a 72 hour notice that they had to vacate the premises. And we would meet the client for the first time right there. Their morning was through the volunteer Legal Services Project, which is now just cause here in Rochester. But we'd meet the client clients for the first time, get up to speed real quick on what their case is, and then go before a judge and try to convince the judge that to evict them immediately. It was obviously it was a worthwhile thing to do to try to help these poor folks who were going to be homeless if somebody did not intervene to help them out. But it also gave us such me such good experience and other younger associates in my firm, such good experience in terms of going in front of a judge trying to argue your case, is effectively as you could without having a ton of lead time. 01:12:00Judge one final question. You've been a litigator and then a judge for almost three decades or a little over three decades now. What's your greatest professional achievement? What's your fondest memory over the decades? 01:13:00Well, probably, one would think my greatest professional achievement would be becoming a US judge. I mean, that obviously was a tremendous opportunity and so forth. But I think the achievement was making the transition from private practice to being and learning the wide variety of there's nothing that can prepare you for this job. You everybody, areas of expertise that they focus on as a practicing attorney, but there's nothing that can prepare you for this job and putting my best effort forward in terms of trying to learn them different aspects of being a judge, I needed to learn, became a district judge. 01:14:00Thank you, Judge. It's been a pleasure to speak to you today. 01:15:00Thank you, Sarah. You've been terrific.